Beginner question

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Open Mind
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Beginner question

Unread post by Open Mind » Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:30 pm

I assume that atmostphere around a planet is contained, because it is the lightest matter that will still cling to earth as a result of gravity pulling it down to a point of equilibrium where air pressure equals a perfect counter to the force of gravity, after which we'd likely lose any extra gas that is repelled by that pressure that exceeds the gravitational pull.

But I read about electric double layers 'containing' certain gasses, and I'm confused about all the mechanisms and their relative influence on a system like atmosphere around a planet.

And a friend asks the question, "if there's no gravity, does it mean there can't be any oxygen?" and I don't really know the answer to that, in light of the potential of an electrical influence on the containment of an atmosphere.

Is it an easy question to answer to a non scientist, or will I be dining on complex word salads about all this with blurring spiral eyes?

allynh
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by allynh » Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:31 pm

Does this answer help.

Without gravity there would be no atmosphere. All of the gases and liquids would evaporate into space.

As for double layers, the Earth's atmosphere forms a double layer when it interacts with the Sun's atmosphere. It's called the magnetosphere.

The Sun's atmosphere interacts with the galactic atmosphere out past Pluto, forming a double layer called the Heliopause.

Are there too many unexplained parts of that, or is it clear enough.

Aardwolf
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Aardwolf » Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:53 am

Open Mind wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:30 pm ..because it is the lightest matter that will still cling to earth as a result of gravity..
Yes gravity constrains the atmosphere as a whole although I would not assume it has anything to do with weight. Many heavier materials other than oxygen/nitrogen are happily suspended above those 2 lighter elements with no logical mainstream explanation.

Open Mind
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Open Mind » Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:42 pm

thanks for the reply's. Ok, so logically gravity is containing the gasses, AND there are some electrical double layers at play, but they can't be expected to simply contain a gas and hold it against a planet.

When I think of the visual of the Safire project 'rings' of plasma, and read that they are self organized, and show different readings on transmutation of elements, depending on where the probe is positioned in those layers, I had wondered if there was a claim that while gravity might hold the gasses around the earth, that perhaps there might have been some 'electrical conditions' which dictated what kinds of gases might be more prevalent in that particular 'layer', but I guess its still up in the air, so to speak.

galaxy12
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by galaxy12 » Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:05 am

It sounds like you might be referring to Birkeland currents with concentric layers. Dr. Scott has some good lectures about these. It has been mentioned that gravity is the main force holding an atmosphere onto a planet's surface. I tend to agree but one has to also consider the atmospheric electric potential gradient. Atmosphere at higher altitudes is typically positively charged while lower atmospheric layers and the earth's surface negatively charged. This creates an electrostatic attractive force as well. Some studies have measured the atmospheric gradient at somewhere between 50 and 100 volts per meter. I have some theories about the atmospheric electric potential but that would be a different topic.

allynh
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by allynh » Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:52 am

This is an example of electrical activity on the edge of space.

For decades pilots would report sprites like this and be ridiculed. Now they are routinely observed from the space station.

Rare Transient Luminous Event Captured in Imagery During International Space Station Experiment
https://thedebrief.org/rare-transient-l ... xperiment/
Breaking NewsScienceSpace
Transient Luminous Event
https://thedebrief.b-cdn.net/wp-content ... 00x779.jpg
A rare form of atmospheric phenomena known as a Transient Luminous Event (TLE) was successfully captured in imagery obtained during a recent experiment aboard the International Space Station (ISS).

The observations were made as a part of the Thor-Davis experiment, an effort designed to observe storm phenomena in the upper atmosphere and their relationship to the accumulation of greenhouse gasses.

The Thor-Davis experiment is a research project that studies storm dynamics from space. The experiment aims to understand how high-altitude lightning affects atmospheric chemistry, particularly greenhouse gas concentrations.

The experiment, an outgrowth of the Thor experiment first undertaken in 2015, began in August and will conclude in February 2024. During that time, it will capture data about thunderstorms observed from the ISS using a special neuromorphic camera, which is designed to function similarly to how the human eye perceives imagery by sensing variances in contrast rather than merely taking traditional photographs.

However, the Thor-Davis experiment also aims to study Transient Luminous Events (TLEs), mysterious phenomena that involve fleeting appearances of electrical discharge in the upper atmosphere, also known as upper atmospheric lightning or ionospheric lightning.

“The scientific questions that can be addressed with limb-viewing from the ISS concerns the vertical structure of TLEs,” reads a portion of a Thor-Davis experiment mission overview.

“We are in particular interested in jets and gigantic jets, which are lightning reaching upwards through the stratosphere and mesosphere. These have been poorly characterized to date because of poor viewing conditions from the ground and because they appear to be rarer than the sprites and the elves.”

“Astronaut observations from the ISS will allow us to regain some observations,” the mission overview states.

Now, the European Space Agency (ESA) reports that images of these rare upper-atmospheric phenomena were successfully captured by ESA astronaut Andreas Mogensen during his Huginn mission.

Transient Luminous Event
https://thedebrief.b-cdn.net/wp-content ... camera.jpg
Red sprite (left) photographed during the Thor-Davis experiment aboard the ISS, alongside the Davis camera view of the event (right) (Credit: ESA).
“Every Saturday Andreas grabbed the Space Station’s camera, mounted the Davis camera on top, and headed to the Cupola to look out for thunderstorms on Earth,” the ESA said in a recent press release.

The TLE in question, recognized as what atmospheric scientists call a red sprite, appeared between 40 and 80 kilometers above the Earth’s surface.

Red sprites and other TLEs are mostly seen from space with help from instruments like the Atmosphere-Space Interactions Monitor (ASIM) located outside the ISS, which monitors electric events at high altitudes.

The TLE Mogensen photographed using the Davis camera is believed to have been roughly 14 by 26 kilometers in size.

Olivier Chanrion, the lead scientist for the Thor-Davis experiment and DTU Space senior researcher, called the new images “fantastic.”

“The Davis camera works well,” Chanrion said in a statement, “and gives us the high temporal resolution necessary to capture the quick processes in the lightning.”

Micah Hanks is the Editor-in-Chief and Co-Founder of The Debrief. He can be reached by email at micah@thedebrief.org. Follow his work at micahhanks.com and on X: @MicahHanks.

Cargo
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Cargo » Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:10 pm

I would poke a hole in this boat by first saying, Gravity is not a Thing. Gravity is just a word we use to describe an effect we measure. But the cause of that effect is not 'gravity', because gravity is not a actual 'thing'. Unlike Electricity, which is an actual thing.

An atmosphere is contained by the charge of the body. That charge or capacitance also creates the magnetosphere and all the other layers which surround the body.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

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Brigit
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Brigit » Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:00 am

by Open Mind » Sat Dec 09, 2023 "But I read about electric double layers 'containing' certain gasses, and I'm confused about all the mechanisms and their relative influence on a system like atmosphere around a planet."

In the electric universe a first step to understanding a "system like an atmosphere around a planet" might start with a quick tour around the inner solar system, for some comparison and perspective.

Mercury has a very slight atmosphere despite its closeness to the sun and low mass.

Venus has a very thick atmosphere despite its lower gravity than the earth; it also lacks a magnetosphere. Weather on Venus includes consistent lightning discharges in the sulfuric fog.

Earth has an ideal atmosphere to hold all phases of water on earth, and it is protected from getting stripped away by the solar wind by its magnetosphere.

Mars has a very thin atmosphere and no global magnetosphere. Magnetic fields on Mars are small crustal magnetic fields which nevertheless can exhibit auroras. Mars, despite its rare atmosphere, has periodic global dust storms and twisters as tall as Mt Everest.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Brigit » Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:21 am

by Open Mind » Sat Dec 09, 2023 "And a friend asks the question, 'If there's no gravity, does it mean there can't be any oxygen?'"

I think your friend is assuming that there is no gravity in an electric universe model of the earth's atmosphere. Gravity is such a weak force that it can't really be accurately measured, yet it is holding us down, thankfully.

The atmosphere of earth has various layers, and it also has an inverted temperature out there, reaching 1200 K.

Image

So you are seeing varying electron densities and temperatures, ie striated plasmas.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

allynh
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by allynh » Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:51 am

They made several mistakes, one of them is that "static electricity" makes the lightning. The other is assuming the iron moves from one place to another rather than made in-situ.

Still, it's a start for something, if they can change their assumptions.

Scientists Uncover Possible Explanation for Bizarre ‘Atmospheric Ghosts’ Phenomenon
https://www.inverse.com/science/ghost-l ... xplanation
Dec. 12, 2023
https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/ ... p-y=0.5956
An image from Earth's surface, looking up at a star-studded sky where a broad region of light is sha...
Four years ago, a green “ghost” appeared over a thunderstorm cloud in the Mediterranean Sea. To the delight of Spanish scientists, this ephemeral sighting finally offered a rare window into a little-known phenomenon playing out high in Earth’s skies.

When lightning strikes, it sometimes triggers the release of a violent optical emission at altitudes between 50 and 90 km above the thunderstorm cloud. These millisecond-long events, called transient luminous events (TLEs), are mysterious.

They can be shaped like jellyfish. These are known as sprites. Other TLE forms exist, boasting playful names like halos and elves. Just a few years ago, thrill seekers and citizen scientists discovered a new TLE, hovering above a sprite, called a ghost. While sprites appear red owing to the nitrogen in Earth’s atmosphere, and blue at more shallow altitudes due to higher atmospheric pressure, ghosts are green. They appear during and after the sprites, like fuzz on top of the jellyfish.

https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/ ... 2Ccompress
A green ghost, seen here, is a luminous glow that sometimes appears above a jellyfish sprite and lasts briefly after the sprite’s flash.
Thomas Ashcraftnone
This puzzling afterglow was the subject of a new paper published in the journal Nature Communications on Tuesday.

Finding a Good Ghost

Researcher María Passas Varo led a team to use a special instrument called the Granada Sprite Spectrograph and Polarimeter (GRASSP), located outside Barcelona, to make a clear ghost sighting.

She and other atmospheric researchers were intrigued when, in the early half of 2019, storm chaser Hank Schyma noticed something new: in the wake of a sprite over the skies of Oklahoma, there was a greenish afterglow. He called the emerald-colored splotch a ghost, short for Green emissions from excited Oxygen in Sprite Tops. The idea behind the name was that, since oxygen is associated with the verdant tones of auroras, that the gas creates the ghosts.

Passas Varo, a telecommunications engineer, spectroscopist, and surveyor of atmospheric electricity based at the Astrophysics Institute of Andalucía in Spain, searched relentlessly for a new ghost. But finding one that GRASSP could glean a lot of data from was hard.

“We have analyzed more than 2,000 spectra, one by one, with the naked eye. We only found one good spectrum of a ghost. So, it is a lot of work. It is tedious,” she tells Inverse.

https://imgix.bustle.com/uploads/image/ ... 2Ccompress
A red sprite (circled) appears and just as quickly disappears. This triptych is part of a sequence from an April 2012 video taken onboard the International Space Station.
NASA Earth Observatory/ISS Expedition 31/Image Science & Analysis Laboratory, NASA Johnson Space Centernone

Then they finally found a science-worthy ghost, radiating from a thunderstorm cloud in the Mediterranean Sea on September 21, 2019. It was their best candidate for spectrographic analysis, in which the team peered into light from the ghost for clues about its composition.

They found a surprise. Oxygen was present, as they expected. But the team also found evidence of iron.

Iron is present in Earth’s upper atmosphere. It comes from the interplanetary dust particles that enter our atmosphere. But according to Passas Varo, it’s usually found at much higher altitudes.

Approximately one in every 100 sprites have ghosts. These events sometimes happen, but aren’t consistent. What makes a ghost appear could be a combination of different phenomena, and iron might provide a special clue.

A Need for Harmony

Cumulonimbus clouds are towers made of water droplets and ice crystals. These tiny particles journey along the updraft from the hot base of the cloud higher and higher until they reach the chilly top. Sometimes, they become larger molecules. If they bang against one another, they produce static electricity. These charged particles create lightning.

What goes down must be balanced in another form, and this need for harmony could be what causes the sprites and jets and all the other TLE oddities.

“When the lightning occurs, when the lightning strikes the ground, then an electric field appears above the cloud because you have to maintain, somehow, the balance of the electric field of the global electrical circuit,” Passas Varo tells Inverse. “Once you have this big discharge in the form of huge lightning downwards, then an electric field develops upwards. And this electric field develops a transient luminous event.”

One possible explanation for ghosts is that the sonic boom we know as thunder is, in one way or another, disrupting the iron from its usual altitude. Gravity waves on Earth, which are vertical, could also be playing a role in producing ghosts.

But what is clear is that a plethora of new observations are necessary. Passas Varo and the team have one good spectrum of a ghost but say it will take 99 more to get a clearer picture of what’s really happening.

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This is the paper.

Spectroscopy of a mesospheric ghost reveals iron emissions
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-42892-1

Open Mind
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Open Mind » Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:23 pm

wow, fascinating.

Thermosphere being so high temperature, but can't melt satellites and rockets, because there's not enough matter at that layer to transfer the heat. I wonder if an analogy might be bicycling through a thin cloud of wasps. Tiny stings that leave a mark, but nothing lethal.

Poppa Tom
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:07 pm

I am of the thought that, like earth, any gravity would be not a smooth function. There would be spots of greater and lesser gravity and atmosphere would be contained in pockets along the surface.

Cargo
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Cargo » Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:29 am

And yet this is true, sort of. But it depends on how you would measure 'gravity'. Can you capture it, weight it, see it? What is IT?
There are survey teams that do this, on some islands where land-above-sea-level is important for life. There are maps of not-small gravity 'deltas' sporadically in a small land mass, some say because of underground water. Anyway, gravity maps are like gravity waves. Looking at something with the wrong ruler. It is without dispute though, that 'gravity' is not smooth even across the surface of clear water. What then can we say about 'Gravity" having effects across entire solar systems. As IF? HHahaha.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

Poppa Tom
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:35 pm

....and then there are electrical charges inherent with the atmospheric properties and will, like static, cling to surfaces in minute quantities.

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nick c
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Re: Beginner question

Unread post by nick c » Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:05 pm

Yes gravity allows a planet to hold onto an atmosphere of gases, however, that does not answer the question of 'what is gravity?'

From Electric Gravity In An ELECTRIC UNIVERSE
Wal Thornhill wrote:Matter and mass
Gravity acts in proportion to the mass of an object. What do we mean when we refer to the ‘mass’ of an object? “One of the most astonishing features of the history of physics is the confusion which surrounds the definition of the key term in dynamics, mass.” [13] Early in the 20th century numerous textbooks equated the mass of an object to its weight. That equation led to confusion because it doesn’t explain why the mass of an object we measure on a weighing machine (gravitational mass) is identical to the mass of that object when we push it (inertial mass).

When it was found that atoms are composed of charged particles, there were attempts to explain mass in terms of electromagnetism. Henri Poincaré wrote in 1914, “What we call mass would seem to be nothing but an appearance, and all inertia to be of electromagnetic origin.” It makes good sense that the equivalence of gravitational and inertial mass should be explained by the electrical structure of matter. However, it is not the philosophical concept of mass but its mathematical treatment that occupies physicists. Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, demonstrated that mass and electromagnetic energy are directly related. But mystification resulted when the earlier concept that related mass to ‘quantity of matter’ was unconsciously substituted. Textbooks and encyclopaedias today slip unnoticeably into the error of using the words ‘mass’ and ‘matter’ interchangeably. A NASA educational website tells us that “mass is a measure of how much matter a planet is made of.” It shows that the confusion of mass with quantity of matter infects astrophysics.

The consequences are profound for cosmology. The mass of a celestial body cannot tell us about its composition. We cannot say what the Sun is made from! Another example is comet nuclei, which are electrically charged bodies. They register masses that should have them constructed like an empty sponge yet they look like solid rock. It is their appearance, together with the recently recovered high-temperature minerals (rock particles) from a comet, that give the accurate picture. Comets and asteroids are fragments of planets. They are not primordial—quite the reverse, in fact.

This inexcusable philosophical muddle over matter and mass has given rise to violation of the fundamental physics principle of no creation or annihilation of matter. It has allowed a miraculous cosmological creation story to gain currency, known as the ‘big bang.’ [14] Notions of ‘vacuum energy’ and of particles ‘winking in and out of existence’ in the vacuum of space are similarly miraculous. The simple fact is that we have no concept of why matter manifests with mass.

But when we apply force to a body, how is that force transferred to overcome inertia? The answer is ‘electrically’ by the repulsion between the outer electrons in the atoms closest to the points of contact. The equivalence of inertial and gravitational mass strongly suggests that the force of gravity is a manifestation of the electric force.

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