a walk out of time

[beekeeper]

In order to fabricate a theory based on mathematical calculations time and distance must be integrated into the formula at one point or another. time being the constant. Our concept of time is based on the earth rotationnal movement whether it be on itself or around the sun. Time is a tool, originally formulated to measure the days, the hours the minutes etc. In our present society it has become a more potent one controlling when and how we work how fast we are going or how slow, how much our work is worth and etc. In a potentially infinite univers we have managed to mindfully limit our understanding of it by using a very human concept that may have nothing to do with reality. The electric univers theory in my mind implies a more finite univers. A circuit no matter how big must have a source and a destination. How does time fare in an Electric Univers?

[jjohnson]

Concepts of time are like the weather. I think everyone has an opinion, but there's not much we can do about it. For me, time is the source of causality in the universe. Almost any conceivable event involves the motion of something, and because time is involved in any "motion", it permits things to happen "before" or "after" or "during" separate events.
The universe has dimension (lengths in three orthogonal or mutually perpendicular directions, of indefinite extent.

Whether the universe is electrically or gravitationally driven (it is likely subject to each influence in varying degrees depending on local conditions) is not significant here. In either case you must have time for things to endure, to cross distance, to have consequent effects. Some wag said, "We have to have time in order to keep everything from happening at once!" I think that time exists in order for anything to happen at all. Miles Mathis (milesmathis.com) is a theoroist who is very strict about using units, and making sure that the correct units are used in order to achieve and describe correctly the mathematical outcomes. To him, time is a representation of a distance. If a clock marks off one second, it is because the escapement has slipped a notch and allowed the second hand to click round a small distance and by definition that distance represents the one second. If you are engaged in thought, electrons have to migrate across synapses in your brain's nerve fiber system to create effects which you, in the course of time, are able to interpret and come up with your "thought".

The other viewpoint of time has to do with questions like, "when did the universe begin (and how?) and "when and how will the universe end?" This makes the a priori assumption that time has a finite duration, lasting from beginning to end. However, if you stand back and take a hard look at the evidence on hand, there is little or very conflicting interpretations about whether the universe actually started, and in what form, or, if it started, was there anything in existence prior to that. Eric Lerner has a lot of cogent arguments against the Big Bang theory. So do many other scientists. For most mainstream scientists working in astronomy and cosmology, in particular, the big bang theory is almost always defended, and they have had to scrabble pretty hard to prop it up and keep it viable.

My view is simply that time unquestionably exists because we observe a causal universe, which requires time for cause and effect to occur at all. I also do not know if time and the universe have existed forever and will exist forever, or if it is all bounded and when the lights "go out", the universe and its dimensions and time all stop at once. So, I prefer to say that it is of indefinite age, and for all I know it will keep on going for an indefinite period of time into the future. How many here on this forum agree with me, I have no idea, so I can't say that this is representative in any way of EU adherents. Time is like mass and gravity. There it is, but what is it, really, under what we perceive as our 'reality''

Jim?

[Siggy_G]

Time:
Time is our way of arranging events into some grid or along a time line. The continuity of natural cycles is a way of indicating time. Mathematically, one needs time as a dimension in order to arrange events and various states in systems. Whether or not time is a entity by itself, something that could stop up, be non-linear or be controlled - will probably always be a philosophical subject. One could say that the universe just consists of physical/spatial dimensions, and then there are velocity differences and limitations in various systems. An object moves a certain distance due to a certain speed. We invent time as an additional measuring tape between start and end points. It's crucial mathematecally, but time may not be a entity by itself. Is e.g. "consciousness" something that exists by itself, just because we have a word for it, and a definition for it - or is this just the interaction and awareness in a neural system? I think there's a parallell to the term time here (i.e. it's abstract). Time is crucial for calculation and to arrange order of events - it certainly exists in a way - but may not be a physical dimension or entity. What we observe is events, cycles and velocities. We just apply a transparent grid called time over them, and use that for various purposes.

Size of the Universe:
The Electric Universe seems to be biased towards an infinite and open system. There is no requirement for it to be limited, like the Big Bang model. As Wall Thornhill said in an interview (Red Ice Radio); "from observation, the one thing we can say about the Universe, is that it is of unknown age and unknown extent. Our ignorance is so profound, since we got so much wrong, that we must almost start all over again - especially when certain evidences are overlooked [in cosmology]". In my view, there could be unlimited amount of branching electrical circuits, there can also be limited and enclosed ones, there can occur new ones etc. The photoelectric effect shows how radiation and electricity can occur in both orders. Electric features on Earth show that we see enclosed electric systems in various magnitudes - just indirectly connected to the larger ones. What all systems have in common, is that they still interact between eachother to some extent. Either mechanically, electrically, magnetically, gravitationally (an electromagnetic effect?) or through radiation. There is no required dimensional limitation to this.

[beekeeper]

Thank you JIm? for the input. Really interesting perspective. I kind of look at the mind as a fabrication of our up bringing, family, religion, school, society, as a whole and the world. Each apparent breakthrough out of any fabricated perspective is like pulling your head out of a box only to find a bigger box. Time being the latest on my mind. Is it a reality or is it just another hurdle on the flight to enlightment. I am somewhat skeptical of anything that comes out of humanity's history. Whether it be science, religion or even history itself. The multi dimensionnal univers now seems like an acceptable scenario. But then again in some accredited circles it may only be a multi "dementianal" perspective. However for me keeping an open mind on any perspective is a lifeline. And I really appreciate this forum and web site for exactly this, as every input is a learning experience.
And thanks again Jim?

[beekeeper]

and thanks to ziggy for the extrapolation on the electric univers model .

[moses]

Think of the universe over all of time to be a book. Each page would be the entire universe in any instant. Whether the universe has existence in any moment or is it like all the pages all fused together is one issue. Consciousness reads sections of a page of this book and responds with feelings or experiencing. This does not mean that all future pages are already fully determined. It does suggest that consciousness could choose to access other pages of this book, and therefore respond to the past or the future.
Mo

[jjohnson]

Hi, beekeeper - I also can't type, as my name is Jim (from James). - not my typo Jim?
I'm not a good existentialist, more of an engineering mindset. For me, I'd add, time is not only real, it is only real in the "now", as far as we can experience. We can't go back and re-do anything in any previous time, which is why we place a high value on recording our history so that we will have ways of reviewing it, if not actually re-living it. And future time is undependable. We can predict some types of events with a lot of confidence and get them right, and some people can even predict certain types of events with a lot of confidence and get them wrong (stock markets, for example, and investment banking come readily to mind.) But as future time can never be with us, or rather, we can't be in it by its definition of "not being here yet", when the next imminent second gets here it changes from "future" to "now" and quickly the moment passes, which it is then called "past".

The universe looks pretty mechanical to me. It also all looks real, and taking chances with its laws can have real and sometimes rather fatal consequences. We each move in our own moments in time, sometimes shared; sometimes not. It is up to each person to make the best of his or her time. The universe neither knows nor cares what we do with our time. This allows us free will, which is sort of a gift, so long as we use it carefully and respectfully. Well, I'm getting off into la-la land, so that's all on this subject!

[moses]

We can't go back and re-do anything in any previous time... Jim

If we could and did change the past, then we would never know it. Really it is a belief that consciousness can not access the past and change it. And the core of this is the belief that consciousness is not beyond time and space.
Mo

[beekeeper]

personnally I have decades of life experience, but a very limited standard education. This limited education has been an hindrance to my making a living endeavour, but today i feel it may be my greatest asset, for there is so much less bagage I have to bail to get where I feel I want to be. Which brings me to the next page. A thought whether it is acted upon or not is a fabrication of our life experience culmunating in a moment. It is also as we now know an electrical impulse. A thought may become a feeling good or bad, if we will let it. There is no isolated island in an electric univers, so as unique and individualistic as we want to be, that being as a person or as a race, we are connected to the rest of the creation. So thoughts are our own but from this perspective they can be given to us. Some would call it revelations some would call it dementia, as others will dismiss the former as hugwash and admit to the latter. What ever the case, and however we think, our past and present experiences with both mindset, makes a living electric univers, a possibility.
I may be quoting someone here but there is a form of comfort in the conventionnal BB theory. For one thing that it certainly carries a lot, is time. And there is comfort in billions of years past and future. For no matter how ephemere our personnal lives are there is continuity in billions of years. We somehow hold it like a security blancket no matter how many holes have been punched into it.
The electric univers model present us with a vibrant ever active univers interacting with every particles into it. It seriously throws doubts into the evolution theory and make possible a very much shorter history of our solar system and it's evolution. Consequently it throws the future into a much shorter perspective, as electrical event of galactic proportion become a now or near future event with no possible warning. It is very disturbing in some instance, but c'est la vie.

On another context can someone direct me to a electrical plasma 101 sort of book I would like to read more about it in a more down to earth context. Thank you

[jjohnson]

The first two books I read were Talbott and Thornhill's The Electric Universe, and Don Scott's The Electric Sky. No math; lots of illustrations, highly readable text. Get them through this website, from Mikimar Publishing in Portland, Oregon USA. Not very costly at all. There are e-books on The Electric Sun and Electric Comet, as well, and even less cost as they are downloaded, not printed. Also, people are always providing links to papers and articles, some EU, some mainstream press, and some technical sites, right here on the Forum.

I like to follow some NASA sites, solar science, the various satellites and also the radio astronomy sites (NRAO in the US and Jodrell Bank in the UK, witht he ESO Vary Long Baseline Astronomy network. All have interesting images, but you have to take their text with a grain of salt sometimes, when they get to speculating on what they think is going on from the gravity-driven universe perspective. Good luck. Do not buy a textbook on plasma physics today unless you are interested in a lot of math primarily for application to fusion power reactor design (which said applications have not been made able to work for the past 6 decades, and the extrapolation forward for a patient with a flat line is... a flat line.) Google plasma physics and you get a lot of good stuff. Don't bother with Wikipedia in this department as it is edited by very vengeful mainstream doctrinaire junkyard dogs posing as scientists. For basic science Wiki is okay. If you have questions about sources for specific questions, check the plasma resources section here on the Forum, or post your request and someone will give you pointers. Keep asking questions! Welcome!

Jim

[nick c]

Do not buy a textbook on plasma physics

Agreed, here is a pretty good one on line:
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/plasma/380.pdf
It's often linked here and is sort of the unofficial standard text book on plasma physics for this forum

Nick

[beekeeper]

Thank you a pleasure chatting with you gentlemen, will certainly be in touch.

[Siggy_G]

beekeeper: I just wanted to add as well, regarding time, that the Electric Universe also allows shorter periods for cosmological events, than that of the mainstream belief. Where mainstream states that stars and planets evolve over billions of years, based on ideal gas mechanics and slow gravity, EU points to way faster and more sudden processes. This is based on electricity, magnetism and plasma dynamics. And there are so many indications that the latter is the fundamentals of the Universe. We can't even say for sure that our close planets have been in stable orbits for very long. The anomalies in orbital paths/planes, different rotational directions, as well as all the incoming comets, indicate some sort of fairly recent interaction or disturbance. In addition, symbolism and archetypes from ancients worldwide could point to the same thing, according to David Talbot.

Regarding time travel and the likes; like a friend of mine said, it's like following one law of physics (mind you, an abstract mathematical one) and breaking all the others...

[StefanR]

How does time fare in an Electric Univers?

Hi beekeepe, I'm not sure how time fares in the EU, but I do come to a realization that considering time is very dependent on the philosophy one takes as starting point. Although I myself cannot tell coherently about it at lenght
let me just out of general interest place these two reasonings for the joy of learning.

Here is talked by Boskovich about Time and Space in a different way:
Boskovich on Space and Time

or one could have a look at this video wherein some classical views are shown:
Grimes on the Eleatic school

Let me repeat that this may have nothing to do with EU, but it is worth in my humble opinion to have come in
touch with these ideas. Have fun!

[jjohnson]

Thanks, Nick. This is a very useful link. The prof makes one really important point right near the beginning, in his discussion of what a plasma is:

Since thermal decomposition breaks interatomic bonds before ionizing, most terrestrial plasmas begin as gases. In fact, a plasma is sometimes defined as a gas that is sufficiently ionized to exhibit plasma-like behaviour. Note that plasma- like behaviour ensues after a remarkably small fraction of the gas has undergone ionization. Thus, fractionally ionized gases exhibit most of the exotic phenomena characteristic of fully ionized gases.

Why this is important is because most cosmic conditions are more or less neutral (quasi-neutral) with a total balanced number of negative and positive charges, and it only takes a small fraction of the overall matter floating in space to become ionized, first, and then, through spatially and temporally complex electromagnetic interactions, to achieve a small fraction of charge separation.

Ultraviolet light and higher energy radiation and cosmic rays, present in most cubic meters of space, will strip some electrons and ionize some of the matter that they encounter. Given those two conditions alone - the presence of some matter, and the presence of suitably ionizing radiation - what results is plasma, exhibiting "most of the exotic phenomena characteristic of fully ionized gases" - which he also defines as plasma.

Note that he points out that plasma is a state - different from the other three bound states of the same matter because its characteristic behavior is bound up in very complex electric and magnetic field interactions among ionized or charged bodies. Note also that these conditions are known to exist throughout the observable universe. The absence of plasma is a rare condition, typically in a gravity well with a protective sheath or magnetosphere and relatively cool thermal conditions, to minimize local ionization. -and even then plasma forces will operate, as in lightning, auroras, ionospheric current sheets, and other phenomena, sometimes with catastrophic effects.

The IEEE notes that over 99% of the observed universe exists in the plasma state. Charged particles are not static under these conditions, and their governing electrodynamic forces are far stronger than gravity as long as charge separation can be maintained. Moving charges in magnetic fields are what define an electric current. Ipso facto - electric currents can and do exist in the conditions in 'empty' space among planets and stars and galaxies. As it turns out, some rather large currents...