Are the planets growing?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Krackonis
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Krackonis » Tue May 04, 2010 2:32 pm

Florian wrote:
Krackonis wrote: The Earth can be hollow and still show all the same scattered attributes regarding S and P waves. I invite you to read it in it's entirety and entertain the possibility. I certainly don't expect to convince you with one agrument, however, with this model, combined with EU theory can give rise to a mechanism for planetary expansion.
I read it, and this model can't explain the anisotropy in seismic waves velocities through the core or the difference in rotation rate of the core and the mantle.
Would you be so kind as to provide some information regarding anisotropy in seismic wave velocities, in general, or about the core of the earth in specific? I discovered a paper from 1991 by J.A. Dellinger that seems to indicate that this work is theoretical and shown as lines of mathematic equations for the most part, asides from his work which are 'snapshots' of the process. I am not certain I like the direction it is heading, but I am certain you have better data to work with.

Also the datasets that are used to form the concensus opinion regarding rotation rates of the core and the mantle would be helpful. I don't want to be looking through data which you are not looking at ;)

I find it best to deal with the raw data and see if falsification occurs to any presented theories.

Thank you for your time and input.

Neil
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Anaconda
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Anaconda » Thu May 06, 2010 2:51 pm

nick c has challenged the Expanding or Growing Earth theory (hypothesis, although, the amount of scientific evidence supporting the hypothesis adds up to 'theory' in my opinion) as not being compatible with Electric Universe principles and cites a series of TPOD's in support for that assertion:
nick c wrote:
-As far as I know, there is not any EU literature in support of the EE. Nothing by Thornhill, Scott, Talbott, etc., however there are three TPOD's which are critical of the theory:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth1.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth2.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth3.htm
So, how does EE theory fit in with the Electric Universe? are the two even compatible?


Nick
But when those TPOD's are reviewed, one finds two issues that must be pointed out: First, the TPOD's focus on Europa, not Earth; second, the TPOD's actually state Geology's standard model, Continetal Drift - Subduction, doesn't work.

So, while the TPOD's do discuss Earth's geology, the TPOD's focus is on Jupiter's moon Europa when attempting to falsify the concept that planetary bodies expand. There is a brief discussion of evidence of Earth's geology, which possibly could contradict Expanding Earth theory, however, Europa, while distant and remote, making it hard to make high resolution observations & measurements, is where the bulk of the TPOD's discussion is directed. So conclusions about whether Earth is expanding based on observations (measurements are even more sparse) of Europa is questionable.

The way to answer the question as to whether the Earth is expanding is to analyze & interpret the scientific evidence regarding the Earth's geology, not a distant small moon in another planet's orbit.

The TPOD's do discuss Earth's geology and it directly & firmly calls into question the standard model, Continental Drift - Subduction, by pointing out evidence which contradicts the model, concluding that hypothesis is unlikely or down-right impossible:

Part One:
According to the [Continental Drift - Subduction] theory, continents are supposedly built from lighter elements and the mantle made of denser materials - sial and sima are the two substances said to enable the continents to slide around. It is now known that the two materials are not separated in layers, but gradually merge into each other near the mantle boundary [making it highly unlikely that continents "slide" around on the mantle].
Since the continental "roots" extend down into the interior of the Earth for upwards of 700 kilometers, the force required to move those billions of tons is so improbable that plate tectonic models have been developed that depend on unsuspected crustal "subduction zones" and not on movement. Just as with Wegener, though, evidence is lacking for such zones.
Continents don't go "sliding around" when they have roots 700 kilometers deep, just as a trees don't go "sliding around" either.

Part Two:
Problems associated with the current [Continental Drift - Subduction] theory are as follows:

1. The power required to move continental landmasses around has not been adequately explained. If the power comes from thermal convection from the core of the planet, then heat energy equivalent to molten iron in the billions of megatons has been radiating from the interior for almost 4 billion years. There has been no process developed or seriously proposed for the initial spreading.

2. No consistent models of relative plate motion have been created. Spreading zones surround some places, such as the plate boundaries of Antarctica and Africa. Where are the so-called subduction zones needed for the recycling of the old crust?

3. The density paradox. Continental rock is supposed to be lighter than the oceanic crust into which it is extruded so that it accretes on the edge of the oceanic plate and doesn’t immediately sink back into the mantle. What causes the crust to become so dense that it then sinks under its own weight into a subduction zone and then back into the mantle? And why is a theoretically lower density plate sinking under the Alps?

4. Rocks other than oceanic sediments have been found in the deep trenches of subduction zones. Older material rather than younger has been found in trench slopes off Japan. Sediment anomalies have been found in the mid-Atlantic basin.

5. The elasticity paradox. The current theory requires that the continental rock be thick and elastic under mountain ranges, yet thinner and more brittle than the oceanic crust in the spreading zones.
This list of contradictory observations & measurements is an indictment of the Continetal Drift - Subduction model.

So, if the Continental Drift - Subduction model has been falsified by numerous observations & measurements as stated in this series of TPOD's, what is the alternative?

Well, the TPOD's state:

Part Two:
...the answer may lie elsewhere, in the evidence for electrical scarring of planets and moons.
Part Three:
In previous Thunderbolts Picture of the Day articles about Europa, it was shown many times that electric arcs playing across Europa in swirling, wavering blooms of plasma or in huge bolts of lightning are a more satisfactory explanation for what we see.
But electric arcs and lightning bolts don't explain mid-ocean spreading ridges that run for a total of 40,000 miles, where magma is extruded and new crust is formed or deep faults and fissures that reach down to the shallow mantle. Even electric discharge machining (EDM) doesn't account for these faults that reach down to the mantle.

Electric arcs and lightning bolts don't account for other evidence as stated by the first TPOD:
Over time, paleontologists found that some continents, now separated by oceanic gulfs, contained fossils on or near their coastlines that were identical. The conclusion was that the extinct animals had once lived side-by-side...
This evidence strongly suggests continents were once in 'contact' (as the TPOD implicitly acknowledges), but new oceanic crust was extruded beween the tectonic plates. Again, electric scarring, electric discharge machining, or planetary lightning bolts, have a hard time explaining these observations, while Expanding or Growing Earth does explain these observations & measurements.

Some have claimed that ALL basaltic oceanic basins are the result of electric discharge machining.

But that simply doesn't explain how the South American continent and the African continent fit hand-in-glove when the two are placed "side-by-side", especially when considering the distance the two continents are now seperated by.

There are other objections the TPOD's present against the Expanding Earth theory, but there are physical explanations for each objection raised.

It's too bad that some Electric Universe supporters have been persuaded that Expanding Earth theory and EU are incompatible because under close scrutiny, the two theories are not "incompatible", but rather the energy and matter required, necessarily, for one theory, flow from the other theory in a natural hiarchial physical relationship.

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webolife
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by webolife » Thu May 06, 2010 3:25 pm

Anaconda quoted:
Part Two:
Problems associated with the current [Continental Drift - Subduction] theory are as follows:
1. The power required to move continental landmasses around has not been adequately explained. If the power comes from thermal convection from the core of the planet, then heat energy equivalent to molten iron in the billions of megatons has been radiating from the interior for almost 4 billion years. There has been no process developed or seriously proposed for the initial spreading. (webolife's underlining)
2. No consistent models of relative plate motion have been created. Spreading zones surround some places, such as the plate boundaries of Antarctica and Africa. Where are the so-called subduction zones needed for the recycling of the old crust?
3. The density paradox. Continental rock is supposed to be lighter than the oceanic crust into which it is extruded so that it accretes on the edge of the oceanic plate and doesn’t immediately sink back into the mantle. What causes the crust to become so dense that it then sinks under its own weight into a subduction zone and then back into the mantle? And why is a theoretically lower density plate sinking under the Alps?
4. Rocks other than oceanic sediments have been found in the deep trenches of subduction zones. Older material rather than younger has been found in trench slopes off Japan. Sediment anomalies have been found in the mid-Atlantic basin.
5. The elasticity paradox. The current theory requires that the continental rock be thick and elastic under mountain ranges, yet thinner and more brittle than the oceanic crust in the spreading zones.
This list of contradictory observations & measurements is an indictment of the Continetal Drift - Subduction model.

webolife responds:
#1. The underlined statement applies equally to the EE model. And the assumed age of the earth in controversial.
#2. In a non-expanding model, only complimentary compressional features are required. There are plenty of mountain ranges to fit this requirement, plus trenches and island arcs... no subduction is required.
#3. There is no density paradox. Denser oceanic crust is being extruded at the spreading zones, then the subduction model [presuming it for the sake of argument] has the denser oceanic crust sinking below the less dense continents. What is happening in the Alps is called by the SM "overthrusting", not subduction. The only reason overthrusting is invoked is to explain why so-called "older" index fossils lie atop alleged "younger" index fossils. Index fossils [and their relationship to the geologic column] are based on the assumption of macroevolution, and indicate nothing directly about age or order of rock formations. And sedimentary rock formations are commonly characterized by alternating density.
#4. Sedimentary "anomalies" in trenches are generally attributed to either presumed age based on the evolutionary view of the geologic column, or to turbiduty currents of regional continental shelf erosion. An anomaly can only be identified on the basis of what you think you should find, vs. what actually occurs; there are no anomalies in nature, only in our presumptions. (I know you agree with this last statement.)
#5. There is no elasticity paradox. The granite-based continental crust is considered to be of a different general composition than the basalt-based oceanic crust.
This list offers no solid contradicting information against continental drift, with or without subduction.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Florian » Fri May 07, 2010 1:53 pm

Krackonis wrote: Would you be so kind as to provide some information regarding anisotropy in seismic wave velocities, in general, or about the core of the earth in specific?
Yes, for example this Nature Geoscience paper by Niu and Chen in 2008
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Florian
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Krackonis » Mon May 10, 2010 1:19 pm

Florian wrote:
Krackonis wrote: Would you be so kind as to provide some information regarding anisotropy in seismic wave velocities, in general, or about the core of the earth in specific?
Yes, for example this Nature Geoscience paper by Niu and Chen in 2008

Perhaps I misinterpreted the paper, but it seems to be struggling with the questions the Hollow Planet Seismology Vs Solid Earth Seismology paper answers.
http://www.hollowplanets.com/journal/Seismic01.asp

Specifically it is refering to the complexities of undestanding why certain waves don't arrive at times they should based on the apparent elasticity and density characteristics we are assuming the cores are made from. This is discussed specifically in his work.

Basically, the wave's from the earthquakes are being misinterpreted as passing through the cores, when they are, in actuality, passing around and through the less dense outercore and travelling slower, not due to complex wave refractions through increasingly denser material, but due to lower density that travels around the hollow 'inner core' area.

This is an understandable misconception based on an improper interpretation of the planets constuction. The anomaly disappears and becomes a natural concquence in the Hollow Planet paper.

Again, I apologize if I did misinterpret the paper you cited.

Thank you for the data, I do hope this helps.

Neil
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allynh
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by allynh » Mon May 10, 2010 6:04 pm

There is an interesting article at Expanding Earth Knowledge Company that mentions the Earth Moon system as a binary planet system orbiting the Sun rather than the Moon orbiting around the Earth.

The True Lunar Orbit, New Mars Size Impact Evidence, and Earth Expansion Implications
http://eearthk.com/Articles08.html

The first part of the article talks about the Earth Moon system, and links to a Wiki page that goes in to more detail. Knowing how Wiki pages mutate and die, I've copied the key section here, because the concept was such a shock that my brain still hurts.

Path of Earth and Moon around Sun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_orbi ... around_Sun
205px-Sun_earth_moon.svg.jpg
205px-Sun_earth_moon.svg.jpg (7.99 KiB) Viewed 12523 times
In representations of the solar system, it is common to draw the trajectory of the Earth from the point of view of the Sun, and the trajectory of the Moon from the point of view of the Earth. This could give the impression that the Moon circles around the Earth in such a way that sometimes it goes backwards when viewed from the Sun's perspective. Since the orbital velocity of the Moon about the Earth (1 km/s) is small compared to the orbital velocity of the Earth about the Sun (30 km/s), this never occurs.

Considering the Earth-Moon system as a binary planet, their mutual center of gravity is within the Earth, about 4624 km from its center or 72.6% of its radius. This center of gravity remains in line towards the Moon as the Earth completes its diurnal rotation. It is this mutual center of gravity which defines the path of the Earth-Moon system in solar orbit. Consequently the Earth's center veers inside and outside the orbital path during each synodic month as the Moon moves in the opposite direction.

Unlike most other moons in the solar system, the trajectory of the Moon is very similar to that of the Earth. The Sun's gravitational pull on the Moon is over twice as great as the Earth's pull on the Moon; consequently[6] the Moon's trajectory is always convex (as seen when looking inward at the entire Moon/Earth/Sun system from a great distance off), and is nowhere concave (from the perspective just mentioned) or looped.[5][6][7] Although if the gravitational attraction of our Sun could be "turned off", the Moon would continue to make one orbit about the Earth with its current sidereal period.
800px-Moon_trajectory1.svg.jpg
The Moon's orbital path around the Sun (accompanying the Earth in its own path around the Sun) is always convex outwards.[5] (In this diagram, the Sun is below and to the left of the frame.)
Now, look at the gif for the Lunar Libration in this new context and you can see the Moon floating along beside the Earth as they both travel around the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lunar ... phase2.gif

Whoa, I need to go lie down, but before I do that, I will leave you with a question.

Since Pluto was demoted we only have eight planets in the Solar System. If Earth Moon are a binary, does that make the Moon a planet, and bring us back to nine. <----{Insert Mad Scientist Laughter}

And here is another question I need asked.

Where was the Moon during the Saturn Event, since it does not, and obviously never has orbited the Earth.

BTW, If there is a thread that discusses the Earth Moon system, let me know.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by redeye » Tue May 11, 2010 8:57 am

Since Pluto was demoted we only have eight planets in the Solar System. If Earth Moon are a binary, does that make the Moon a planet, and bring us back to nine. <----{Insert Mad Scientist Laughter}
The Moon is tidally locked to the Earth so it is "in thrall" so to speak. Pluto and Charon are tidally locked to each other and represent a true binary system, although I agree that the Earth/Moon system is a binary system. Venus and Mercury are both locked to the Sun, should we be calling them moons?

Check out Earth's second moon for some wild orbital dynamics:3753 Cruithne

Orbital dynamics page

Sorry if this is a little of topic.

Cheers!
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by remelic » Tue May 11, 2010 1:44 pm

I agree and disagree that planets are growing. I don't know if his has been mentioned before or not since the thread is huge, but I think that only Earth is Growing and maybe Venus. But I don't think Mars or Mercury are growing because of their lack of continents. As a matter of fact it takes a special event to occur to create an Earth-like planet. Earth is expanding their is no doubt about it given the geological evidence.

Nice to meet everyone.
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Krackonis
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Krackonis » Tue May 11, 2010 2:31 pm

allynh wrote:There is an interesting article at Expanding Earth Knowledge Company that mentions the Earth Moon system as a binary planet system orbiting the Sun rather than the Moon orbiting around the Earth.

outwards.[5] (In this diagram, the Sun is below and to the left of the frame.)
Now, look at the gif for the Lunar Libration in this new context and you can see the Moon floating along beside the Earth as they both travel around the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lunar ... phase2.gif

Whoa, I need to go lie down, but before I do that, I will leave you with a question.

Since Pluto was demoted we only have eight planets in the Solar System. If Earth Moon are a binary, does that make the Moon a planet, and bring us back to nine. <----{Insert Mad Scientist Laughter}

And here is another question I need asked.

Where was the Moon during the Saturn Event, since it does not, and obviously never has orbited the Earth.

BTW, If there is a thread that discusses the Earth Moon system, let me know.

It could be easier to answer where the earth was. Some theorize that the moon remained in it's orbit until we joined it. There is evidence that our day was only 260 days long until it moved to 360 then to 365.25. How true this is is certainly debatable, however, there is some interesting evidence.

If interested I can give some links and others, I am sure, can aswell. I love theorizing about mythological reconstructions, however, I know it can sidetrack a thread very easily ;)
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by webolife » Tue May 11, 2010 2:42 pm

The Earth-Moon system has been considered binary for a least as long as I've been teaching Earth Science [32 years], and the diurnal tides are a direct result of this important fact. This difference between a planet and a moon, as far as gravitation is concerned, is merely to what body they are being compared or related. There is some mathematical evidence for the earth capturing the Moon during a near [~15 million miles] encounter with Venus in which our sister planet aided in veering the asteroid-Moon off of its elliptical path. In fact, deep Earth tidal interactions with the Moon has been long considered as a possible cause of supposed mantle convection and by connection seafloor spreading/continental drift. All of this considering only the gravitational aspects, no EU stuff.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by allynh » Tue May 11, 2010 6:04 pm

Mercury and the Moon are the two main puzzles I'd like solved.

Mercury was the messenger of the gods, so it must have been zipping all over the sky, but where was the Moon during all of the Thunderbolt stuff. I suspect, based on the Alien Sky video, that the Moon was last in the string of planets after the Earth. That when things shook loose the Moon stuck with us.

That's what is so fun about shaking things up. When you find the right viewpoint, everything changes.

Hello, remelic.

Just start at the beginning of the thread and work your way through. It should only take a month for you to read all of the supporting links. I've returned to the start again and am working my way back. I finally read through all the Expanding Earth Consortium stuff and found his post about Prime Matter.

New Hydrogen Nucleus Structure
http://michaelnetzer.com/gu/content/view/66/63/
Michael Netzer wrote: Based on Neal Adams' Prime Matter Positron-to-Proton Theory

The New Hydrogen Nucleus Structure is a geometric model which demonstrates a count calculation of the layered Prime Matter particles bound by the force of a core positron, to form a proton. As an electron is attracted to the new proton, a new Hydrogen atom is born.

In his elegant theory for emergence of new atomic matter in the universe, Neal Adams states that new protons effectively emerge in the cores of celestial bodies through layered accumulation of 918 Prime Matter particles around a positron, in a process commencing with Pair Production. A Prime Matter particle is the combined electron and positron fields which are theorized to neutralize each other upon converging in the Positronium state, thus rendering themselves undetectable and are assumed to annihilate. Each Prime Matter particle carries an electron weight of two (2), one positron and one electron. The accumulated electron weight of the predicted 918 Prime Matter particles in the model is therefore 1836, same as the electron weight of a proton.

A verifiable calculation of the number of particles in a geometrically sound model is considered crucial to the veracity of Positron-to-Proton Theory.
I need to model what he is talking about, now that I have Mathematica.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Anaconda » Wed May 12, 2010 10:16 am

Hi allynh:
allynh wrote:There is an interesting article at Expanding Earth Knowledge Company that mentions the Earth Moon system as a binary planet system orbiting the Sun rather than the Moon orbiting around the Earth.
allynh, I want to thank you for bringing the proper Moon/Earth relationship to my attention, it was something I didn't know. Yes, I assumed the Moon orbited the Earth (although, after reading the links, the fact that the Moon keeps the same face pointed toward the Earth, makes more sense, given this "binary" relationship).

At first glance the Moon's relationship to Earth would not seem to have much to do with an expanding Earth, but after reviewing the links, I was struck by the fact that the Moon doesn't "orbit" the Earth in the normal sense of the word, but acts as a "binary planet system" (you learn something everyday :) ).

I suspect 99 out of a 100 people interviewed on the street would state that the Moon orbits the Earth as conventionally stated in most textbooks, but instead, it would seem, a much different relationship exists between the Earth and the Moon. I'll admit the exact physical dynamics are still elusive in my mind, and, perhaps, that is because I've also spent my life assuming the Moon orbited the Earth in the traditional way it is presented.

I assumed the traditional representation was right, never thinking to question this representation, and, with that long length of time thinking the same way, it is hard to change your thinking (all sorts of rationals crop up in the mind to discount new information). allyn, let me suggest the reason why your "brain still hurts" is cognitive dissonance: Psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously.

But doesn't this cognitive dissonance also color the way people look at both the Electric Universe and the Expanding Earth theories?

I suspect most of the objections to the Expanding Earth theory evolve from this psychological truth: Long held beliefs are hard to dismiss, no matter how much contrary Scientific evidence is presented. But, of course, that is the challenge to scientists and scientific observers, alike. (So the question hangs in the air: Are we up to the challenge to put aside long held subscriptions and beliefs upon being confronted with overwhelming scientific evidence for the Expanding Earth theory?)

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by allynh » Wed May 12, 2010 7:33 pm

I told my 86 year old Mom about how the Earth Moon is a binary system, and the next day I called she asked,

"Have you figured out your Earth Moon rope yet?"

She pointed out that the orbits were like a two strand rope braided together.

If she can get it, then I have hope.

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Aardwolf » Thu May 13, 2010 6:00 am

Technically all 2 body systems are binary systems so by definition the Earth is not orbiting the sun either, nor are any other planets/satellites etc. However, to avoid confusion, normally to be refered to as binary system, the centre of mass needs to not be located within either of the bodies own mass. So by this amended definition, the Earth/Moon system is not referred to as binary.

I'm not sure what impact this has on the Expanding/Growing Earth theory though.

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Krackonis
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread post by Krackonis » Thu May 13, 2010 1:34 pm

Aardwolf wrote:Technically all 2 body systems are binary systems so by definition the Earth is not orbiting the sun either, nor are any other planets/satellites etc. However, to avoid confusion, normally to be refered to as binary system, the centre of mass needs to not be located within either of the bodies own mass. So by this amended definition, the Earth/Moon system is not referred to as binary.

I'm not sure what impact this has on the Expanding/Growing Earth theory though.
Actually, from my understanding the Earth/Moon is the only planet/moon combination in which the moon(s) does not orbit the equator. The orbiting of the moons occur along the equator of the parent planet. EU Theories indicate this is due to the electric influence of the parent planet pushing the moons to the "Faraday motor" equilibrium along the equator.

I am not sure if the center of mass has anything to do with it.
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