Developments of Scott and Thornhill's Electric Sun Model

[galaxy12]

This is an expansion of Scott and Thornhill's Electric Sun Model. See:

Stars in an Electric Universe, (2011 John Chappell Memorial Paper), Wallace W. Thornhill

There have been frequent articles announcing the Sun's upcoming pole reversal scheduled for 2024 and which occurs about every 11 years.

I have not yet seen a mechanism described to account for this so I will propose a partial hypothesis here along with an evolutionary development of Wal Thornhill's Electric Sun Model.

The earth's magnetic poles are confusingly described in literature. The geographic and alleged magnetic north pole of the earth actually corresponds to the south pole if we consider the earth as a magnet. Earth's north geographic and magnetic poles attract the north end of a compass needle which is the historical reason for the confusing nomenclature.



The sun's magnetic poles are also confusingly described. The northern geographic pole of the sun always corresponds to the northern geographic pole of the earth. If viewed from above the north pole of either the sun or earth, the rotation observed will be counterclockwise.





Actually all of the planets in the solar system except for Venus, Uranus and Pluto will rotate counterclockwise when observed from the north poles.



To make things even more confusing, instead of describing the sun's magnetic poles are magnetic north or south, they are usually referred to as positive (corresponds to north pole of a magnet) or negative (corresponds to the south pole of a magnet). The sun's magnetic poles change direction every 11 years, adding more confusion.

From 2014 to 2023, the sun's northern geographic pole would be best represented by the north (positive) end of a bar magnet.



After the sun's pole flip in 2024, the sun's northern geographic pole would correspond to the south (negative) end of a bar magnet.

Thornhill referred to Dr. Scott's electric sun model in the paper cited above.



Wal Thornhill provided some insights into his version of an electric sun model when he described the photosphere as a transistor, controlling the rate of solar discharge. I added some comments to his model to describe the photosphere as an resistive element or insulator in a capacitor.



I have expanded these hypotheses to model the sun more closely with Alfven's unipolar inductor model of the galaxy and my recent posts about celestial body electricity generation.



Thornhill described the photosphere as a transistor that controlled current flow. I tried to envision how this would work but I have not yet come up with a solution. A transistor would require 3 connections. I do feel confident about the photosphere acting as a resistive element or insulator and the 2 connections being the inner and outer photosphere. With the sun acting as a generator, electrons would flow into the north and south geographic poles and the moving charges within the sun's body would propel the electrons outward using mechanisms I described in this post:

https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... php?t=1185

Using the photosphere as a resistive element or insulator, the electrons from inside the body of the sun would meet resistance there and build up a negative charge along the inner edge of the photosphere. Since an insulating effect of the photosphere would create what is essentially a large capacitor, we would expect a positive charge to develop on the outer edge of the photosphere to balance out the negative charges inside.



What has been described above is a positive charging scenario which would generate a north magnetic pole at the north geographic pole of the sun. The charging would continue through the 11 year solar minimum. In reality, the charges reverse about every 11 years as shown in the following graph. After charging during the solar minimum, discharging would follow for the next 11 years during solar maximum.



The mechanism for the 22 year cycle remains elusive. I have read hypotheses about planetary alignments and current sheet changes but none have been overly convincing thus far.

[galaxy12]

I have been struggling to get this model to work properly and some issues remain:

1. Sunspot activity peaks every 11 years.
2. Solar polar fields reverse every 11 years but the north geographic pole returns to a north magnetic alignment every 22 years.

See the following graphs:



For this model to work, the photosphere's "capacitor" or "transistor" must charge in one direction and discharge to neutral over 11 years, then the "capacitor" must charge in the reverse direction and discharge to neutral over the next 11 years. The "charging" phase of the capacitor must coincide with low sunspot activity while the discharging coincides with higher solar activity.

As previously described, charging of the photosphere in one direction will gradually produce a north magnetic pole at the north geographic pole of the sun. Charging in reverse will produce a south magnetic pole at the north geographic pole of the sun.

I have to admit that creating a simplified solar model has been difficult. There is a rather complex interaction of charges and current flows that occur. The balance and movement of these charges determine the direction of the sun's magnetic field and the polarity of its poles.
With this "very tentative" hypothetical model, during the 11 year cycle that creates a north magnetic field at the north geographic pole we would have the following electron flows and charge distributions:

1. Valance electrons in both the negatively charged region under the photosphere and the positively charged region of the chromosphere will will flow in the opposite direction of the sun's rotation.

2. Negative ions beneath the photosphere will be rotating with other atoms in the same direction of the sun's rotation. The positive ions outside the photosphere will also be rotating in the direction of the sun's rotation.



During the following 11-year cycle that creates a south magnetic field at the north geographic pole we would have the following electron flows and charge distributions:

1. Valence electrons both outside and underneath the photosphere would continue to flow in the opposite direction of the sun's rotation.
2. Some positive ions would now build up under the photosphere and negative ions would build up outside the photosphere.



To be honest, I have my doubts whether this model could work. Reversal of the charges under the photosphere from negative to positive should theoretically reduce the electron flow from inside the sun through the photosphere to the chromosphere. It would be similar to reducing the bias of a transistor or vacuum tube. Theoretically this would produce a solar minimum but scientific data shows that this period of hypothetical reverse charging also produces high sunspot activity.

To simplify these complex interactions, we must determine the net magnitude and velocity of the sun's overall charges. The photosphere charging circuits described above will change the balance of charges beneath and just outside the photosphere. These charging processes will serve to separate the charges of the sun.

The sun rotates counterclockwise when viewed from the north pole. The equator has the greatest velocity of the sun. Using the right hand rule, we can wrap our right hand's fingers around the equator of the sun and point our thumb in the direction of equatorial rotation. If the sun had a net positive rotating charge, our fingers would indicate the direction of the magnetic field lines, indicating a north magnetic pole at the north geographic pole. If, on the other hand, the sun had a net negative rotating charge, our fingers would show an incorrect direction for the magnetic field lines.



Let us look at 2 scenarios.

Scenario 1: In year 2020, the stored solar charge in the photosphere's hypothetical capacitor was at maximum capacity. Solar minimum was concluding and solar maximum was starting. The north geographic pole was consistent with the north magnetic pole of a bar magnet. Using the right hand rule described above, we determine that our fingers correctly determine the magnetic field line direction (fingers point north to south). This tells us that the net rotating charges of the sun were positive. With the photosphere's capacitor fully charged, there was maximal charge separation with the negatively charged area on the inside of the photosphere and the positively charged area on the outside. Since the outer layers of the sun travel faster than the inner layers, they have more effect on the "unipolar inductor" or "generator-like effect of the sun. With the charges maximally separated, the outer positive layer predominated and created a northern magnetic field at the north geographic pole.

Scenario 2: In year 2010, the hypothetical solar "capacitor" was fully charged but in the reverse direction as in 2020 as described above. We were experiencing another solar minimum, similar to in 2020. With our hypothetical photospheric capacitor now fully charged in the reverse direction, we see an opposite magnetic polar alignment. The north geographic pole was consistent with the south pole of a bar magnet according to scientific data collected. Using the right hand rule described above, we determine that our fingers point in the opposite direction of the field lines. This tells us that the rotating charges of the sun had a net negative charge overall. With the sun's "capacitor" reversely charged, the charge separation in the sun was reversed. The outer layers of the sun developed some negative charges above the photospheric "capacitor" while developing some positive charges beneath. This tells us that in the sun's reverse charged state, it has a fairly strong overall negative charge. The outer sun's regions would continue to have an overall positive charge but the negative charges just above the photospheric "capacitor" have lesssened the overall positive charge of the chromosphere. The faster rotation of the outer positive region was not enough to overcome the sun's overall negative charge.

As I have been describing, modeling the sun's electrical behavior is extremely complex. I have to commend Scott and Thornhill for their attempts to create solar models but I feel this subject was just too complex to tackle for individuals without help from a team of scientists and better access to data. I do think Scott and Thornhill's models helped to point us in the right direction though. I have not given up on Thornhill's suggestion of a solar "transistor" effect but I will have to do more research.

[galaxy12]

Despite my frustrations with creating a comprehensive solar model that accounts for the fluctuations of solar activity and magnetic pole reversals, I feel fairly confident the overall energy generation model of the sun should include at least some element of Alfven's unipolar inductor model. Alfven intended for the unipolar inductor model to apply to galaxies but I suggest that the model is applicable to any rotating celestial body. The electron flow in a solar model would be essentially the same as for galaxies and the mechanisms for electricity generation would be similar.



As I have previously proposed, some of the energy from the sun may originate from nuclear fission in the core. This proposal was based on the concepts of repulsive gravity and gravitational shielding. My proposal suggested that gravity is caused by radiation pressure from low frequency electromagnetic waves. Although low frequency electromagnetic waves have great penetrating ability compared to higher frequency waves, they are unable to penetrate into the cores of large celestial objects. An environment without gravity was proposed as a contributing trigger for nuclear fission.

[jacmac]

galaxy12,
Your attempt to figure out where plus and minus charges are going
and in what part of the sun's cycles things happen is interesting
but I kind of get lost in the details. My focus is on what the plasma seems to be doing.

The main circuit diagram, you use, is from Hannes Alfven and adopted by the EU.
Wal Thornhill focused mostly on the sun being an electric discharge.
Dr Scott went with that also, but he added the incoming DRIFT CURRENT,
that concentrates the plasma at the sun from the entire solar system.
Scott also says the chromosphere is a DOUBLE LAYER; Thornhill, i think, does not.

I mostly follow Dr Scott and think understanding the chromosphere is key to understanding what is happening
with all three parts of the sun. Your ideas may be compatible but I don't know.

In very simple terms this is what I think:
The sun's core is a solid body; EU agrees.
Solar system plasma concentrates at the sun(Scott drift current).
Chromosphere is a plasma Double Layer(Scott yes, Thornhill, ??)
The chromosphere (DL) is the plasma self organizing, isolating the photosphere from the corona.
The granules of the photosphere seem to rise up, roll over and go back down; caused by the DL. Not 100%.
The incoming plasma drift current gets partially turned back by the DL causing the extreme temperature rise above the
chromosphere. What gets through the DL is what powers the sun .
The sun is externally powered by the Galaxy.
The 11 and 22 year cycles are probably caused by the solar system moving through the wavy galactic current sheet, (as stated by Robertus Maximus, a forum contributor), similar to the earth moving through the heliospheric current sheet. I also think the planets play a roll in those cycles and in the butterfly pattern of the sunspots.

[galaxy12]

As I recently mentioned, at least some of the sun's energy is likely due to the "generator" effect of the sun's rotation. This "generator" could be considered a variant of Alfven's "unipolar inductor" or a variant of what is often referred to as the "solar dynamo."

The following study makes a fairly convincing argument that the "generator" effect of the sun's rotation is responsible for at least some of its energy output if the rotation varies with time.



The sun's motion includes its spin or rotation around its axis which is a representation of its angular momentum. The sun also orbits around the hypothetical center of the solar system. The sun's orbital radius varies based on planetary alignments. When the sun moves closer to the center of the solar system, it loses orbital velocity but gains spin/rotational/angular velocity. This paper hypothesizes that changes in the sun's angular velocity and hence, its angular momentum, referred to as DL/DT, coincide with increases in sunspot activity. This would support the "generator" or "unipolar inductor" theories of solar energy generation.

The following graph is very convincing at showing that changes in rotational velocity correlate with sunspot activity from 1710 to 1950:



This is a description of the graph:



The following graph shows data from 1950 to 2013. This graph seems to show a delay between the change in angular momentum/spin to the increased sunspot activity.



As presented, this study fairly convincingly supports the theory that changes in the sun's angular momentum will increase its energy output although sometimes with a delay. It does also, fairly convincingly, explain the sun's 11 year sunspot cycles and 22 year polar magnetic cycles are based on changes in angular momentum due to planetary alignments. It does not necessarily show that energy output of the sun results from its stable rotational velocity. Since the solar "generator" or "dynamo" or "unipolar inductor" hypotheses are based on a stable rotational velocity, this study does not necessarily support this type of energy generation for stars or galaxies except ones where the celestial body's rotational velocity/spin varies with time due to varying off-center orbits and star/planetary alignments in their solar system or galaxy.

Despite this study's lack of direct support, I do feel fairly confident that at least some of the sun's energy output is due to its generator-like effect that would occur even if its spin/rotational velocity did not vary with time.

[galaxy12]

galaxy12,
Your attempt to figure out where plus and minus charges are going
and in what part of the sun's cycles things happen is interesting
but I kind of get lost in the details. My focus is on what the plasma seems to be doing.

The main circuit diagram, you use, is from Hannes Alfven and adopted by the EU.
Wal Thornhill focused mostly on the sun being an electric discharge.
Dr Scott went with that also, but he added the incoming DRIFT CURRENT,
that concentrates the plasma at the sun from the entire solar system.
Scott also says the chromosphere is a DOUBLE LAYER; Thornhill, i think, does not.

I mostly follow Dr Scott and think understanding the chromosphere is key to understanding what is happening
with all three parts of the sun. Your ideas may be compatible but I don't know.

In very simple terms this is what I think:
The sun's core is a solid body; EU agrees.
Solar system plasma concentrates at the sun(Scott drift current).
Chromosphere is a plasma Double Layer(Scott yes, Thornhill, ??)
The chromosphere (DL) is the plasma self organizing, isolating the photosphere from the corona.
The granules of the photosphere seem to rise up, roll over and go back down; caused by the DL. Not 100%.
The incoming plasma drift current gets partially turned back by the DL causing the extreme temperature rise above the
chromosphere. What gets through the DL is what powers the sun .
The sun is externally powered by the Galaxy.
The 11 and 22 year cycles are probably caused by the solar system moving through the wavy galactic current sheet, (as stated by Robertus Maximus, a forum contributor), similar to the earth moving through the heliospheric current sheet. I also think the planets play a roll in those cycles and in the butterfly pattern of the sunspots.

I apologize for not responding to this post. I must have missed it somehow. You bring up some important points.

You state "The main circuit diagram, you use, is from Hannes Alfven and adopted by the EU."

I agree but with some caveats. Alfven was a trailblazer with his proposal of general electron and positive ion flow of galaxies in the 1970's. His model, although revolutionary at the time, was not very detailed. He did not propose that the model was applicable to the sun or other celestial bodies as I have suggested. As far as I am aware, Alfven did not propose a mechanism to explain how his "unipolar inductor" generated electricity. I did propose a mechanism in this post which I believe is much needed evolutionary improvement to his trailblazing model:

https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... php?t=1185

You state "Wal Thornhill focused mostly on the sun being an electric discharge."

I tend to agree with this in general. I am not sure "discharge" was the proper term since the current flow through the sun is continuous, although with some fluctuations. Thornhill's model does need more details before it can be accepted scientifically and I have been working on that. If we apply the mechanisms I detailed in the post above about the "unipolar inductor", we are starting to arrive at more details how this electric flow or "discharge" operates. If the electrons enter the sun at the poles and encounter an insulator or area of resistance such as the photosphere, they can build up a high enough voltage until the insulating layer "breaks down" and current flows. When electrical breakdown of the insulator occurs, the built up charges are accelerated through the resistive or insulating layer at high speeds. The sun could have current flow through a resistive region (photosphere?) that is constantly in the "breakdown" phase, causing acceleration of electrons through it. The velocity of electrons through this breakdown region will determine the frequency of electromagnetic wave emitted. The higher the electron velocity, the higher the frequency. If the resistance builds up in the breakdown region for some reason, the electrons will be accelerated at higher velocities, causing higher frequency electromagnetic wave emissions.

You state "Solar system plasma concentrates at the sun(Scott drift current)."

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. The sun has most of the mass of the solar system and is highly ionized, so I can agree that most of the solar system's plasma is there.

You state "Chromosphere is a plasma Double Layer(Scott yes, Thornhill, ??)." When matter is less dense such as gases or dust in space, the electric flows tend to create double layers. If matter is more concentrated such as in a copper wire, the ionized atoms are bound to the wire and cannot move so they therefore cannot create double layers. Positive ions in plasma typically move in one direction while the electrons travel in the other. Particles that travel in the same direction tend to travel together and this can form "layers." The chromosphere is not very dense and current is flowing through it so I do not doubt that double layers are forming. The fact that there are double layers could be distracting us from seeing the underlying current flow.

You state "The chromosphere (DL) is the plasma self organizing, isolating the photosphere from the corona.
The granules of the photosphere seem to rise up, roll over and go back down; caused by the DL. Not 100%.
The incoming plasma drift current gets partially turned back by the DL causing the extreme temperature rise above the chromosphere. What gets through the DL is what powers the sun ."

When you mention that "What gets through the DL is what powers the sun." I think you may be misunderstanding plasma flow. The "layers" that form in plasma as typically parallel to the current flow. You may have one "layer" of electrons and another "layer" of positive ions traveling. These layers will be close-enough to each other that electrostatic forces will perpetuate the current flow. What may be more accurate to say is "The electrons that are able to pass from the interior of the sun through the resistive or insulating properties of the photosphere, chromosphere and corona are what powers the sun." Thornhill made a valiant attempt to describe this but his model lacked details.

You state "The sun is externally powered by the Galaxy."

According to Alfven's "unipolar inductor" hypothesis and the details I described about electron flow through the galactic limbs, I do believe the galactic current has an effect on the sun's output. We have to remember that a celestial body's mass largely determines its energy output. The sun likely receives a large number of charged and uncharged particles (mass) from the galactic current flow, allowing it to maintain or increase its mass. Even without considering the addition of mass, the current flow from the galactic circuit also likely increases the sun's energy output as its electrons and ions impact the solar atmosphere and increase its electricity generating ability.

You state "The 11 and 22 year cycles are probably caused by the solar system moving through the wavy galactic current sheet." I did post some information from a study that suggested the sun's rotational acceleration and deceleration were converted into energy output. The sun has both a rotation/spin and an orbital motion in the solar system. When the sun's orbit decreases or increases, this change in orbital motion is allegedly translated into faster or slower rotational/spin velocities, causing increased energy output and increased sunspot activity. I do agree that there are probably other longer-term solar maximums or minimums that we may eventually correlate with precession or movement through the galactic limbs.

Thank you for the interesting questions and I hope this answered most of them satisfactorily.

[galaxy12]

I was trying to read through Thornhill's papers and started going through the one titled "Toward a Real Cosmology in the 21st Century." This is probably the best of his papers I have seen thus far. He has an image in the paper showing the "breakdown region" that I have been discussing in my post. It seems Thornhill's solar theory was more advanced than his other papers suggested. I very much agree with Thornhill that the sun must have a "breakdown region" or resistive area that causes a voltage to build up, causing an acceleration of electrons through the area. The diagram of the breakdown region model is here:



I believe Thornhill used the term "discharge" to describe the current flow to align with cathode/anode setups of the time that refer to the light emitted as a "discharge" or "glow discharge."

This image from the paper was very insightful providing information about the sun's environment in the galactic limb: (Please note that the sun's north geographic pole is up in the diagram).



I continue to believe that Thornhill's greatest achievement was probably his ability to integrate ideas from various researchers into a cohesive framework of an Electric Universe. Thornhill's papers provide the best overall picture of cosmology that I have encountered.