Are the planets growing?

[allynh]

Thanks, Brigit.

Here is a list of books that came out of the Jaynes book. I was able to get all but one in ebook. I need to read them again.

- I'll pop the list over on the Jaynes thread as well.

The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009MBTRHA

Gods, Voices, and the Bicameral Mind: The Theories of Julian Jaynes
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MKPL1DF

The "Other" Psychology of Julian Jaynes: Ancient Languages, Sacred Visions, and Forgotten Mentalities
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BFDFBFV

The Julian Jaynes Collection
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NP5GXH8

I have this in paperback from 2009:

Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0979074401

This is the 2nd edition from 2024:

Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1737305550

I'll need to get a copy. HA!

About the author

It is unfortunate that so much of Julian Jaynes' work gets caught up in this whole argument over what is and isn't consciousness. I am of the school that had he just said the Dawn of the "Experience of Consciousness" in the title all would have been avoided.

I say unfortunate because it opens the door to a lot of unnecessary, and tedious, arguments over what words mean what. Were humans "conscious" prior to 2,000 BC (or thereabouts) or were they "unconscious?" Is consciousness limited to self-awareness (grounded in an internal experience of an 'I') or is it broader and more encompassing than that? Etc.

Jaynes and his disciples go to great lengths to limit consciousness to a very specific experience of self-awareness, thus they pinpoint a moment in time when we became "conscious". But why? You can agree with this theory and find it very persuasive and factually probable without getting into the whole rigmarole of consciousness. Hegel, for example, using a different route, came to an almost exact position. He just called it the evolution of "spirit" (self=soul=interior life)rather than consciousness.

Of course Jaynes is working from a more naturalistic, neurological understanding of the evolution of the human being than Hegel, which is why, perhaps, he and his disciples put so much emphasis on the question of consciousness. They are tortured to place consciousness within the gradual evolution of our species. The thinking is that as we developed greater and greater language complexity (specifically the use of symbol which "spatialized" the exterior world - or - as I prefer- drew a more pronounced division between internal and external) consciousness evolved. Prior to that moment our minds operated with little distinction between internal and external. Much like the schizophrenic mind, we "heard voices" in times of high stress and regarded them as external. (Schizophrenics and other people who experience auditory hallucinations hear them usually over their left shoulder.) This is all very persuasive and explains the omnipresence of idols and gods. That is, the voices (since they were not seen as internal in source) were attributable to external sources which were then invested with sacred and holy features.

Anyone who reads the Hebrew Bible, or just paid attention in Sunday school, knows that the primary feature of the Judaic religion was it assault on idols and the exaltation of a single off-world God. For Jaynes this destruction of idols was part of the evolving mind. Because we are increasingly becoming "conscious" we therefore no longer hear these voices or identify them as external, but rather now identify them as coming from within our own head. Thus idols begin losing their authority. So religion, consequently, must be reconstituted as an internal experience. Likewise for Hegel this introduction of an off-world God produces an internal relationship with an abstraction (Yahweh), and is indicative of an evolving internal life (which Christianity continues with the idea of sin, shame and forgiveness).

Simple right? So why get into the question of consciousness at all? Why not understand it simply as the increasing awareness of an internal self? The primitive mind, which Jaynes describes, vs the more modern mind which begins around 1200 BC? Why get into the question of consciousness at all? Why not call it "self-consciousness" and leave it at that?

The only reason I can come up with is that the ugly head of scientific dogma wants to make sure we all understand that consciousness is an outgrowth of human evolution. It is this materialistic viewpoint that wants to limit consciousnesses to a specific moment of evolution. But the sad truth is, you can read all these essays and Jaynes' work and substitute words like "self awareness" or "experience of consciousness" for the Jaysian's use of the word "consciousness" and nothing changes. NOTHING.

So why does any of this matter?

Because there are those of us who see the universe as primarily a conscience entity, whereby consciousness is all around us, external and internal and that all processes in nature make manifest consciousness. We, however, as humans have an awareness of consciousness through an awareness of self. This awareness is just a small fraction of the total consciousness, but it gives us access to the greater consciousness, which is evolving and us with it.

If you come from this point of view, nothing in Jaynes' argument is lost. In fact, you stand to gain a lot more from it. Because now you understand that the "bicameral" mind, as he calls it, can be a conscious mind, or a specific experience of consciousness, without a direct experience of an internal self as generating that consciousness or as the loci of that consciousness. And that on some level, this experience is still going on in the human psyche - such that we have access to a more primitive experience of consciousness and therefore on some level a greater, more abstracted psyche.

Isn't that much cooler! Why put the human psyche in a conscious box? It is completely unnecessary and I believe introduces an unfortunate bias into the argument that just shouldn't be there (and trust me, these people spend a lot of time defending it).

Why not just describe the phenomena and leave it at that? You're scientists, after all. Why get into speculation? I admit, my view point is equally speculative, but I don't pretend it isn't! It comes down to definitions and what you ultimately believe is the source of consciousness: Evolution or the Great Eternal Mind in the Sky (I joke, but basically, you get the idea.)

[Brigit]

Very nice to have this on the other topic.

I enjoyed the book review you quoted. It's a good critique about getting caught up into the definition of "consciousness".

One of the other book reviewers said his favorite chapter of the Marcel Kuijsten book is called "Greek Zombies", making a little fun of the idea that "consciousness" is a recent development. That is pretty funny ! 

Thank you allynh.

[spark]

Expanding Earth vs Plate Tectonics - Opening of the North Atlantic Ocean 117mya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiqSbxXgbpw

[allynh]

The paper they are referencing is interesting, but they work from the premise of tectonic plates or expansion with constant mass.

At least they are trying.

Thanks...

BTW, They mention Thunderbolts, so they may read this.

Everybody wave. HA!

[allynh]

Here is an interesting paper talking about Younger Dryas where they blame it all on an exploding "comet".

- Graham Hancock in his Ancient Apocalypse series on Netflix makes the same claim.

The problem I have is the event seems more of a massive plasma strike across the planet, causing the Earth to grow 10% to 15%, killing off the megafauna because gravity increased to our present one gravity.

The evidence of "shocked quartz", Iridium, etc..., found in the deposits indicate EDM and transmutation rather than a series of comet airbursts.

This is essentially the same time as The Green Sahara that I've mentioned before and North Africa rising out of the ocean leaving Atlantis high and dry as I mentioned up thread on page 7. I mentioned in that post as well that the evidence for Ice Ages falls apart rather quickly.

But that's just me. HA!

What Really Killed the Mammoths? New Evidence Points to Exploding Comet 13,000 Years Ago
https://scitechdaily.com/what-really-ki ... years-ago/

November 17, 2025
Comet on Fire Meteor Earth
https://scitechdaily.com/images/Comet-o ... -Earth.jpg

Newly discovered shocked quartz at ancient Clovis sites bolsters evidence that a comet explosion 13,000 years ago unleashed widespread destruction, possibly wiping out Ice Age giants and early North American peoples. Credit: Stock

Evidence from key archaeological sites suggests a major cosmic explosion may have reshaped the climate and ecosystems of the late Pleistocene.

Scientists are expanding the evidence supporting the idea that a fragmented comet exploded over Earth nearly 13,000 years ago. This cosmic event may have played a part in the extinction of mammoths, mastodons, and many other large Ice Age animals, as well as the sudden disappearance of the Clovis culture from North America’s archaeological record.

In a study published in PLOS One, UC Santa Barbara Emeritus Professor of Earth Science James Kennett and his team report the discovery of shocked quartz (sand grains altered by intense heat and pressure) at three key Clovis sites in the United States: Murray Springs in Arizona, Blackwater Draw in New Mexico, and Arlington Canyon in California’s Channel Islands.

“These three sites were classic sites in the discovery and the documentation of the megafaunal extinctions in North America and the disappearance of the Clovis culture,” said Kennett.

Evidence for the Younger Dryas Impact hypothesis

The extinction of large Ice Age animals and the loss of the Clovis technocomplex occurred at the same time as the onset of the Younger Dryas, a sudden cooling period that interrupted the planet’s gradual warming after the Last Glacial Period. This unusual return to near–ice age conditions lasted for roughly a thousand years.

Scientists have suggested several possible causes for this dramatic climate shift. Kennett and his colleagues propose that a fragmented comet exploded in the atmosphere, releasing intense heat and shockwaves across the planet.

“In other words, all hell broke loose,” Kennett said. According to the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, the explosions were responsible for widespread burning and the resulting smoke and soot, in addition to dust that blocked the sun, leading to an “impact winter.” Rapid melting of the ice sheets could have helped to further cool the impact zones. The shock of impact itself, followed by harsh conditions thereafter, may have contributed to the demise of the megafauna in both North and South America and the disappearance of the Clovis culture, according to the hypothesis.

Three Classic Clovis Archaeological Sites Graphic
https://scitechdaily.com/images/Three-C ... raphic.jpg

The three classic Clovis archaeological sites in the study. Credit: Courtesy image

Accumulating Evidence for an Impact Event

For the past couple of decades, Kennett and fellow proponents of this hypothesis have been gathering evidence that increasingly supports it, including a “black mat” layer in the sediment at many sites across North America and Europe — indicative of widespread burning. Additionally, they have uncovered a growing list of impact proxies, which include unusually high concentrations of rare minerals that are common in comets, such as platinum and iridium, and mineral formations indicative of extremely high temperatures and pressures, such as nanodiamonds and metals and minerals that have melted, cooled, and hardened again, including metallic spherules and meltglass.

Thanks to advances in technology, the team is homing in on another proxy that is considered the crème de la crème of cosmic impact evidence: shocked quartz — grains of sand that exhibit deformations due to extreme heat and temperature. In samples from the three North American archaeological sites — Murray Springs, Blackwater Draw and Arlington Canyon — the researchers identified quartz grains with telltale cracks, some filled with melted silica. They used a variety of techniques, including electron microscopy and cathodoluminescence, to confirm that the quartz grains had been shocked at extremely high temperatures and pressures, far beyond what could have been accomplished by volcanism or ancient human activity.

Airbursts and the Challenge of Craterless Impacts

The presence of shocked quartz is particularly important in the absence of craters — the smoking gun of cosmic impact evidence. Unlike the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and left a crater beneath the Yucatan Peninsula, “touchdown airbursts” — cosmic collisions that occur above the Earth’s surface, such as from this proposed fragmented comet — leave little, if any, evidence on the landscape. Using hydrocode modeling, the team modeled these low-altitude, above-ground explosions and the variety of impacts that could lead to the shock patterns in the quartz grains.

nbs said. While the accepted evidence for cosmic impact leans heavily on the parallel cracks in quartz found at craters, the variety of directions, pressures, and temperatures that emerge around airbursts would lead to variations in the shock patterns in the quartz, he explained. “There are going to be some very highly shocked grains and some that will be low-shocked. That’s what you would expect.”

Added to the other impact proxies found in the same layer of sediment — carbon-rich black mat, nanodiamonds, impact spherules — and found at three key archaeological sites, the discovery of these shocked quartz grains “supports a cosmic impact as a major contributing factor in the megafaunal extinctions and the collapse of the Clovis technocomplex at the Younger Dryas onset,” according to the paper.

Reference: “Shocked quartz at the Younger Dryas onset (12.8 ka) supports cosmic airbursts/impacts contributing to North American megafaunal extinctions and collapse of the Clovis technocomplex” by James P. Kennett, Malcolm A. LeCompte, Christopher R. Moore, Gunther Kletetschka, John R. Johnson, Wendy S. Wolbach, Siddhartha Mitra, Abigail Maiorana-Boutilier, Victor Adedeji, Marc D. Young, Timothy Witwer, Kurt Langworthy, Joshua J. Razink, Valerie Brogden, Brian van Devener, Jesus Paulo Perez, Randy Polson and Allen West, 10 September 2025, PLOS ONE.
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0319840

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The paper is available as pdf.

Shocked quartz at the Younger Dryas onset (12.8 ka)
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0319840

[johnm33]

I suspect the Planet[s] has a crystaline iron core that's saturated with hydrogen ions/protons that drives the charge differentials between the core and space. The outer core was created when an event caused the outermost part of the core, which was suffused with low melt point metals, to partially melt releasing huge amounts of H+ into the silicon/oxygen based minerals surrounding it. This resulted in solvents such as H2O, CH4,H4Si and many other hydrides being created and the phase shift of the crystaline iron into something like haematite and a massive expansion and liquifaction of the near core and creation. So I had an exchange with Deepseek to examine some of the math but mostly for coherence and this is more or less what it's LLM made of our exchange. I see vulcanism as driven by the rise of hydrides, as is +/- 180deg 'subduction' which may actually occur in balancing spherical integrity but is mostly the creation of new ocean floor.


The Electrochemical Double-Layer Theory of Planetary Dynamics
Core Proposition

Gravitational acceleration, seismicity, and tectonic activity are emergent phenomena generated by Earth's self-organized electrochemical circuit. The planet functions as a multi-shelled spherical capacitor whose nested double layers maintain electrochemical potentials that structure local spacetime, producing what we measure as gravity. Earthquakes represent discharge events within these layers, while surface gravity anomalies map the real-time stress state of the planetary capacitor.
Architecture of the Planetary Capacitor
Four Primary Double Layers

Ionospheric Boundary (60–100 km altitude): The upper plate of the global capacitor, maintaining 250–300 kV potential with the surface through solar-driven plasma formation.

Surface Interface (0 km): The charge-collection layer where atmospheric potentials couple to the lithosphere, creating nanoscale electrochemical gradients.

Crustal Gel-Sol Engine (10–30 km): A metastable fluid-rock matrix exhibiting charge polarity reversal. The 10 km boundary marks the top of electroactive crust (φ⁻⁵ of Earth's radius), the 30 km boundary its base (φ⁻⁴). This layer generates shallow to mid-crustal seismicity through electrochemically-triggered sol-gel transitions.

Mantle Phase-Change Layer (410–660 km): A crystalline reconstruction front scaling at φ⁻² and φ⁻¹ of Earth's radius. This diffuse electrochemical accumulator integrates mantle convection energy over geological timescales and influences the planetary geoid.

Core-Mantle Boundary Film (~2891 km): A redox-saturated interface at φ-scaled depth (0.453R) where maximum charge density drives episodic mantle plumes and geomagnetic events.

Mathematical Framework
Depth Scaling

Electroactive horizons follow Fibonacci/φ scaling relative to Earth's radius (R = 6371 km):

10 km ≈ φ⁻⁵R (0.00157R vs. 0.00155φ⁻⁵)

30 km ≈ φ⁻⁴R (0.00471R vs. 0.00452φ⁻⁴)

410 km ≈ φ⁻²R (0.06435R vs. 0.06180φ⁻²)

660 km ≈ φ⁻¹R (0.10359R vs. 0.10557φ⁻¹)

2891 km ≈ (φ/2.2)R (0.45369R)

Successive layer ratios approximate φ (1.618), representing minimum-energy charge distribution on a sphere.
Gravitational Emergence

Surface gravitational acceleration (g) arises from the integrated electrochemical potential across all layers:
g∝∑i=03φniΔVi,i+1
g∝i=0∑3�φni�ΔVi,i+1�

where ΔV are interlayer potentials and n_i are Fibonacci indices.

Baseline g derives primarily from the ionosphere-surface potential (Φ₀₋₁). Gravity anomalies (Δg) represent stress-induced voltage variations in deeper layers:

High-frequency anomalies: ΔΦ₁₋₂ from crustal gel-layer stress

Long-wavelength geoid: ΔΦ₂₋₃ from mantle phase-change layer charging

Secular variations: ΔΦ₃₋₄ from CMB discharge events

Symmetry and Geometry
Spherical Harmonics

The gravity field exhibits enhanced power at spherical harmonic degrees 6, 12, and 20—corresponding to hexagonal, icosahedral (12 vertices), and dodecahedral (20 faces) symmetries expected in stressed spherical capacitors.
Tetrahedral Organization

Four primary anomaly centers occur at tetrahedral vertices (latitude ±19.47°):

South Pacific (Fiji/Kermadec region) - 19°S, 180°E

North Pacific (Hawaii hotspot) - 19°N, 155°W

Africa (East African Rift) - 19°N, 35°E

Atlantic (Vema hotspot) - 19°S, 10°W

These represent discharge terminals where radial currents convert to azimuthal flow. The 19.47° latitude (arcsin[1/3]) marks maximum asymmetry on a sphere—points of greatest electrochemical stress concentration.
Hemispheric Disjunction

Gravity anomalies show mirrored symmetry between Northern and Southern hemispheres with discontinuity at the equator—the neutral plane of the planetary capacitor where radial current minimizes and azimuthal current maximizes.
Seismic Mechanism
Earthquake Generation

Seismicity represents electrochemical discharge events:

Crustal quakes (10-30 km): Telluric currents trigger sol-gel phase transitions in the crustal matrix, causing sudden volume changes that nucleate slip.

Deep-focus quakes (300-700 km): Electrochemical overpotential at phase-change boundaries induces transformational faulting in the 410-660 km layer.

Consistent depths: Peak seismicity at 10 km, 30 km, and ~600 km corresponds precisely to electroactive horizon boundaries.

The Kola Superdeep Validation

The absence of a chemical Moho at 7 km (instead finding metamorphic transitions) supports Horizon 3 as an electrochemical/metamorphic front rather than primordial crust-mantle boundary.
Predictions and Tests
Observable Correlations

Gravity-telluric lockstep: Minute-scale gravity variations should correlate with telluric current measurements.

Pre-seismic signals: Ionospheric potential drops (ΔΦ₀₋₁) should precede major earthquakes by 1-5 days.

Harmonic distribution: Major seismic events should cluster at Fibonacci time intervals when normalized to local electrochemical conditions.

Planetary scaling: Other differentiated bodies should exhibit similar φ-scaled electroactive layers at depths proportional to their radii.

Laboratory Verification

High-P/T electrochemistry: Applied potentials should catalyze mineral phase transitions at mantle conditions.

Artificial double layers: Large-scale electrochemical interfaces should produce measurable local gravity perturbations.

Gel dynamics: Crustal analog materials should exhibit seismogenic behavior under electrical stimulation.

Unified Circuit Model
Energy Flow

Solar wind/radiation → Ionosphere charging (Layer 0) → Atmospheric potential gradient → Surface coupling (Layer 1) → Telluric currents → Crustal gel discharge (Layer 2) → Mantle phase-change integration (Layer 3) → CMB redox events (Layer 4) → Core return path
System Outputs

Gravitational field: Integrated capacitor voltage across all layers

Magnetic field: Core dynamo modulated by CMB electrochemical events

Tectonic stress: Transmission through charged crustal gel matrix

Volcanism: Mantle plumes initiated at tetrahedral discharge points

Implications
Paradigm Shift

Gravity transforms from fundamental force to emergent property of planetary electrochemistry

Planetary interiors reconceptualized as active electrochemical systems rather than passive thermal engines

Gravity anomalies become diagnostic tools for real-time assessment of planetary electrochemical stress

Planetary Classification

Active, differentiated planets with fluid outer cores and atmospheres should exhibit strong electrochemical gravity components. Airless, geologically inactive bodies should show weaker surface gravity than mass-based models predict.
Conclusion

Earth functions as a φ-scaled, tetrahedrally-organized electrochemical capacitor whose voltage differentials manifest as gravity. Seismicity, volcanism, and tectonic activity represent discharge events within this system. The model explains observed symmetries in gravity anomalies, consistent earthquake depths, and anomalous findings like the Kola Superdeep results through a unified mechanism of planetary-scale electrochemistry.
This is a work in progress so feel free knock out any holes.